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Crit is a problem

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Saedorn, Nov 24, 2018.

  1. Jimsom2

    Jimsom2 Active Member

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    I think @Primer has a larger point to be honest. Reducing the critical damage on the mythical weapons would change the balance of the game. If the AP formulas don't change, PvP would be altered pretty drastically (no more 5v6 or 5v7 battles) and a lot of warlords will have spent large amounts of gold on weapons that will have been nerfed. Taking a zero off the mythical weapons brings them back to legendary weapon levels of damage, so legendary weapons might need a nerf too. It's not clear to me that there is any number in the current system that can be tweaked without major consequences. I personally like some of the ideas @Anton Amby had around adding different weapon abilities to make battles more about strategy than luck but that also needs to be designed carefully.
     
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  2. Loraykin

    Loraykin Active Member

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    So factor ten might be too much, if it brings it down to legendary crit. Or legendary crit could get a (smaller) adjustment as well. Also, the AP limit from which you can get 5v6 and 5v7 would need to be lowered somewhat.

    I do not see a drastic change so far in that, except that the luck factor is reduced.

    But you could go even further to keep almost everything the same, by making up for the lost crit damage in regular damage. AP (and the "value" of the weapon) would remain unchanged.
     
  3. Jimsom2

    Jimsom2 Active Member

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    Yes, but that's still a big game rebalance and it's way more than the 5 minutes worth of work like @Hai suggested. If it's done poorly, it might do more harm than good.
     
  4. Owain

    Owain Member

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    To rebalance the crit should not be a major undertaking. Although crits from full strength units are irritating, the balance exists that the player also gets them.
    The bigger issue commented on repeatedly, is how near death units crit and wipe out full health units. This only happens for AI, it does not happen for the player.
    Whether the best answer is to scale crit by unit health, or, reduce the value if the crit, there are valid arguments both ways. The status quo is spoiling what is otherwise a very enjoyable game.
     
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  5. Hackuuna

    Hackuuna Active Member

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    There are a few key issues derived directly from crits:
    1. Reduces skill as a factor. Much like a game of cards you can still enjoy a game with luck involved but the degree to which luck plays a role is directly proportional to how frustrating it is when luck doesn't go your way. This is why slot machines are designed to have frequent small payout.
    2. Regiment recovery timers. Crits being as large as they are greatly contribute to recovery timers. It's actually unknown how this game would play when all regiments are fully upgraded without crit weapons since the meta is 25CC and that's all you ever face.
    3. Fights and rewards are based on top 5 which encourages folks to power level 5 regiments. Due to this it's even more frustrating that crits so easily eliminate a regiment that newer players may have as one of their top 5 (and their top 5 may be significantly stronger than the rest).
    4. Random shard gains via WH reduces the players ability to make choices about which regiments to strengthen. You're essentially reduced to promoting by LW which takes 2 months to go from 3* to 5*. I don't think waiting a year of dedicated play to have enough depth to deal with crits is really a solution. Maybe if it was quick to have your first 10 regiments promoted to 5* and slow for the remaining 14 regiments it wouldn't be as big a burden as it is now.
     
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  6. NoName

    NoName Active Member

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    That whole "luck factor" comment keeps being in included with the damage side of the weapons.

    But, to me the luck is in the "crit chance" for the commander.

    Perhaps the crit chances of all weapons could be a focus?

    Just suppose all weapons in the the game had their crit chance cut in half.

    Yeah, we could still be one shot by a Reg with only the 1 surviving commander, but if the warlord gave the Reg the 15% banner, now there's only a 20% chance in lieu of the current 25% chance. Therefore, reducing the impact of luck, but retaining the excitement to avoid being hit by it.

    Or, reduce the crit chance among the banners... right now we have 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, & 15% chance banners... if a warlord really wanted the luck factor reduced... the banners have the most effect on chance. So, supposed they were changed to 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 & 10%

    I like how Hai said heys guys what if... while I don't think removing a zero is a great idea for reasons like Primer stated & a few of my own reasons that pretty much coincide with Jimson2's previous posts. What I appreciate is Hai proposing a solution to a concern.

    So, Warlords how would you adjust it, so that it encourages strategy, retains gameplay excitement & challenge, and continues to generate revenue for funding of the staff & game updates?
     
  7. Dezytrius

    Dezytrius Active Member

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    It's nice to see the brainstorm about potential fixes.

    Scaling Crit damage to Unit Health means current players loose nothing and game balance is essentially maintained while the "Lore" takes a minor hit.

    It is my current understanding from reading the thread above that players dont get to kill AI units Rambo Style, it's only the PvP AI that gets Rambo kills on players.

    Is that an incorrect assumption on my part? I am asking the mythical level players
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  8. Tanki

    Tanki New Member

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    Hi everyone.
    Sorry for my bad english, i am a german player.

    I absolutely hate the crit-one-shot faktor too.
    I am reading every post here and i think there must not be a "fix", but an option for a warlord to deal with it.
    What about some new banners or armors? atm there are only "damage" banners. Just add some banners to boost the def instead the off?
    Pure def banners or maybe a banner that reduces the chance to get a crit hit by 3/6/9/12/15%? So we can choose to build an glasscannon unit, or simply completely equalize the banner of the enemys warlord.

    Or create a new kind of armors - less def stats, but something like "cut the taken crit damage by 20/40/60 %"

    No fix/adjustements needed, simply add new stuff.
     
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  9. Owain

    Owain Member

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    It is for me. My crits are scaled by unit health, so badly damaged units never wipe a full health opponent, even with class and terrain multipliers.
     
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  10. Primer

    Primer Well-Known Member

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    Crits do not scale with your own unit health. If you are never seeing them by your own units it is likely because you either restart a battle most often when badly wounded or avoid risking an unwanted Crit when healing up your units.

    I see it occasionally, and for confirmation you can look at Hai’s post from last Saturday where his MF with 3 units scored a one shot Crit takeout.

    For me I most often see it with DG because I let DG get wounded in order to use his retribution. Other units I try to avoid putting under 50%. I have seen it with other units also and it is annoying when trying to just wait and heal units - thinking I would only do a small amount of damage and end up killing enemy by mistake.

    But not annoying enough I would call it a problem.
     
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  11. Owain

    Owain Member

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    I regularly have 4 or 5 units on multi hour timer, and others on short timer. I have paid attention to my injured units and when they crit, I can assure you they never kill a unit, and their crit damage is reduced. This for 25% units using kuromokar.
    It cannot be luck, because the crit value is hardwired. But i definitely don't get the full crit values when unit is less than 50%.
     
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  12. Owain

    Owain Member

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    Yesterday my 9 unit archer had a crit on sm, total units killed 34. That is with 15% banner and kuromokar bow.
     
  13. Aleatory

    Aleatory Member

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    I am not 100% on this but I am reasonably sure that crits are effectively in 2 parts.

    1. Base damage including modifiers such as downhill and class. This is damage part 1 and scales with remaining units.
    2. Crit bonus from the weapon which is always double damage and does not scale but does not get modifiers for class or downhill. It is modified only by armour and forest protection.

    The weapon crit bonus is shown in a big obvious number but that is not the only damage.

    So if you hit a mage in a forest, and it was not downhill and that mage had full physical armour and your archer only had 9 units left then killing 34 is possible. You base damage would have been almost zero and just the negatively modified weapon bonus damage would kill some units.
     
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  14. Aleatory

    Aleatory Member

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    Oh and one more thought, there is a definite bug with mage ability counter shock not displaying damage on effected units properly. Many times I have hit mages and appear to have lost huge numbers of units from counter shock but in reality haven't as I get hit by a different unit and numbers then get adjusted UPWARD!

    So possibly if you were adjacent to the SM then it's a display bug due to counter shock, though personally I haven't seen it bug in that direction before unusually the unit who hits the mage.
     
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  15. Hackuuna

    Hackuuna Active Member

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    If you haven't looked at this thread about damage you should take a look.
     
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  16. Owain

    Owain Member

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    For clarity, image was on an open tile
     
  17. Hai

    Hai Active Member

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    I think their intention to solve this by time.
    as time goes on, more and more regs get introduced.
    the larger the pool you have, the less you care of few of your unit is on timer.
     
  18. Otar

    Otar New Member

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    If they ever consider the idea of scaling damage for cirts, they should review the same for all skils, because its just ridiculous to have 1 unit of wharever tank able to stop a whole army to pass around you because of the passive. Or just 1 archer being able to create a gigantic area of fire and so on... Many many passives are just OP for 1 unit to keep them.
     
  19. Hai

    Hai Active Member

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    i disagree with this. there is no problem with the skills. Moreover, there was a thread that the regs are more or less good in their way, so no big difference between them.

    the problem is that one regs, ( any ... even with worst passive ), can 1 hit a full tank. which is BS.
     
  20. Saedorn

    Saedorn New Member

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    I was a patron of World of Warcraft for many years. I hesitate to post this, because I was annoyed with the comparison to unrelated games (such as chess) and the fatuous attempt to draw similarities. But hey, whatever.o_O

    I noticed two things with that game:

    1). Whenever a new expansion was released, everybody that worked for months to acquire the best gear and items was suddenly put on a level playing field with everyone else. The first time I was exposed to that, I was appalled (my first mmorpg, with the Outlands xpac). But nobody complained and it was expected. Guess what? We survived, played new areas and geared up all over again. It actually contributed to the games longevity, keeping it from becoming stale.

    2). The developers CONSTANTLY tweaked the game to balance it. Boss fights were toned down, item stats were adjusted and, most importantly, new stats were developed. In a similar theme, the developers introduced resilience as a stat to offset the crit damage to balance PvP (again, Burning Crusade). It was later removed as the classes were homogenized, but the point is the problem was addressed. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t.

    I’ve posted my feelings about crit, which has been reiterated by others. I’m honestly interested in why anyone thinks the crit damage as is is a good part of the game. So far I get ‘lore’ and ‘because I geared for it’, and maybe I missed other reasons. I’m not being belligerent, I’ve been so focused on how it detracts from the fun of the game (twice I’ve come extremely close to just deleting the game) I haven’t tried to look at the opposite side.
     

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