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Crit is a problem

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Saedorn, Nov 24, 2018.

  1. Owain

    Owain New Member

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    To me, it boils down to whether you can accept that playing a strategy game , that every turn there is a Percentage risk that you will lose, based purely on luck.
    Which removes the value of developing the strategies in the first place. As commented, nothing worse than a 2-5 unit wiping out your full health unit. Infuriating when it happens more than once.
     
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  2. BlackAdder666

    BlackAdder666 Well-Known Member

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    True dat. But do not forget, Kuromokar is also the key to losing :)
     
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  3. Waarthog

    Waarthog Member

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    Or the key to winning if your the lucky one delivering the crit.
     
  4. Waarthog

    Waarthog Member

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    The be honest the more I face fully forged Kuromokar weapons the more I also must admit, that the damage is really a bit too high they put out. I think it wouldn't be bad to take the edge off these high numbers, best without nerving the weapons and crit too much. Something like take away the target multiplier, multipliers for elevation and maybe even the offence/defence modifier. Make it a straight number as stated on the weapon it would still hurt but not as much as it does now. Also put the crit damage a bit in relation to the remaining unit size, maybe something like the regeneration cool down. If the unit has more than 50% full amount is used and if the unit is lower it goes gradually down to like 25% of the possible amount if there are just a handful of men left ... Just an idea to make it a bit more balanced but not taking it away totally.
     
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  5. Iulian Darie

    Iulian Darie New Member

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    Without crit pvp will be like pve. Hide behind a tank ftw. Where will be the fun? Let crit alone. Its good like its right now.
     
  6. Anton Amby

    Anton Amby Well-Known Member

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    Isn't this more of a problem than it's a good thing though? The only things that set ''PvP'' and PvE apart from eachother are crit, the number of different regiments that you will face and a minority of players competing to get into a top 100 leaderboard for a small bit of extra rewards? (the rewards aren't even that good, if you actually make it to the very top of the leaderboard you've more likely than not spent way more on rerolls than you will get from getting there) :confused::confused:
    For the majority of players PvP is just PvE with crit and a slightly larger regiment pool.
    For most people it's not even actually PvP since they're not competing for the leaderboard (that's just what we chose to call it on the forums) and it's still against AI, a more accurate name would be somthing like 'Player vs Predictable AI that uses the same pool of regiments as you', that's a bit too long to write every time we refer to it though. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  7. Dezytrius

    Dezytrius Member

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    Seems like we have roughly two(2) basic camps of players:

    Those who like the current randomness, want the luck factor of 10 guys killing 250+ in one shot, and are willing to restart app when the game doesn't break their way.

    Those who want a more tactically realistic game where crit damage is scaled in some way, and bad luck is not avoided with app restart, but rather accepted preferably with shorter timers.

    Sorry if I left someone out, not my intention.
     
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  8. Loraykin

    Loraykin Active Member

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    Hell yeah it wouldn't be possible to one shot a big stack with a badly injured unit. That's exactly what we (people who prefer strategy over luck) are lobbying for.

    It wouldn't limit armour choice at all. People use balanced armour for max AP, and sometimes full physical for battle. That wouldn't change. Contrary to your claim, weapons/banners at mythical IS severely limited at the moment, with almost everyone agreeing on playing with max crit banner and max crit damage weapon. Why? Because the balance is tilted towards crit (rolling the dice, and possibly restarting if you don't get the roll) rather than consistent high attack and high probability of the crit. If crit was scaled down, there could be a shift towards using other gear.

    I find this argument really funny. "It's just how it is, deal with it". Applying it consistently means a game can't change. I don't know about you in particular, but I've seen people use this argument in one place, then go nuts over something else they absolutely want changed in another. If you say "I'm in favour of keeping the system exactly as it is", fair enough. But to act like it's something that can't be changed makes little sense.
     
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  9. Loraykin

    Loraykin Active Member

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    Just try to ask yourself honestly for a moment if you actually played that game, witnessing a critical hit, and suddenly having the epiphany of "oh wow, now I get it, life is so brittle, every second of my life can be my last, because I'm just like this character in a game made by nerdy humans!", or if you just apply something that sounds sort of philosophical which you think anyway (have thought before playing this game) to create some kind of roundabout justification for how big the critical damage number is.
     
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  10. Primer

    Primer Well-Known Member

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    There is absolutely some aspect of randomness involved in this game. This does not necessarily make it a bad thing- and it does not turn it from a strategy game into a luck game. I have seen comparisons to chess in this thread which i believe is not the correct analogy.

    Chess is a game with no “random chance” element. I don’t say no luck, because sometimes you can get “lucky” if your opponent makes a mistake he or she would not normally make. It happens. The higher skilled player will win more often, but upsets do occur. Players near equal skill may split wins in multiple games. Turn based with no random element.

    But a better comparison may be competitive backgammon (or poker). There is a random element involved, but over time the more highly skilled player will still win more often. Upsets may be more frequent than chess due to the random chance factor, but in the long run skill still wins out.

    I would never say backgammon or poker is a “bad” game because it has a random factor involved, and I don’t feel Warlords would be a better game if the random factor were removed. I base my army Development and playing strategy on the rules of the game as they exist, not what I might wish they were instead. If I felt the random aspect was too influential, I would simply find something else.

    I personally wish it was harder to win battles (but I know this opinion is in the minority for casual players so I am not complaining or requesting a change). Losing a battle is not a bad thing. Games where you win every time get boring. Even the dominos game I normally play I only win the AI 2 player version about 70% and the 4 player version about 30%. Not much above random distribution but I don’t claim to be a professional level player. I have found versions where the AI is so bad I win over 90% of the time and I delete those because I find them boring.

    And yes, if you are playing backgammon on certain platforms you can choose to start over if the AI rolls double the first couple turns. Other platforms this would count as a loss. All depends on how the game is setup to run. This game is currently not setup to penalize restarting, although anything can change.

    If things change I will adjust. My only hope would be they announce the change in advance so I could prepare instead of slipping it in on us during an update and waiting for us to notice. And certainly not in the middle of a competitive PVP season as that isn’t fair to those vying for top spots.

    To sum it up (I know, post is long and rambling). It is okay for some to feel the Crit Damage is too high and should be changed - and it is okay for others to enjoy the randomness and the need to tailor their strategy to take this into account. These are personal preferences and opinions rather than facts. There is no “fact” that one way is right and the other is wrong.
     
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  11. Loraykin

    Loraykin Active Member

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    I don't think many people want to eliminate random damage completely, certainly not me. Nor would I argue that this is a "luck game" with no strategy involved. As you say, in most games you have both aspects, and it's a matter of how pronounced each aspect is.

    Do you actually lose battles? You're putting 5 regiments on the timer for no rewards? I don't think I've ever lost a battle in this game (except maybe at the very start when I still hadn't figured it out), because you can just use the cheat and try again. Which also makes the "it should be harder to win battles" problematic. This just means players would need even more tries and restarts than they already do, and I think any game that has a repeat-cheat as an integral part of its game-play has a significant issue.

    Agreed. But that doesn't mean arguing about it is pointless, and some opinions here were based on factually wrong arguments. For the devs, this should be an interesting thread.
     
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  12. Primer

    Primer Well-Known Member

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    Admittedly haven’t lost a complete battle in some time (since discovering restart ability.);) In this game a more appropriate choice of words would have been that losing some Regiments is not necessarily a bad thing. I have lost 4 of 5 on particularly hard battles a few times. Usually save those for just before going to sleep.

    I recall two that actually took more than 20 attempts just to have one survivor. Those were a challenge and solved NOT by random Crit hits (or lack thereof) but by changing army combos, tactics, and even gear (yes, full magic armor can be useful in certain situations). To me there is a difference between trying the same thing over and over waiting for better “luck” than restarting to try and develop better strategies. The introduction of 5v7 battles caused me to change a lot of old strategies on most maps. We all know PVP season isn’t about strategy really, so restarting doesn’t give anyone a competitive advantage.

    I agree that wouldn’t be fun if every battle resulted in three lost Regiments, but one or two of those a day is a nice challenge for those of us who don’t want to just play casually and farm resources quickly each day. I also completely understand why some players would not want these type of battles. It is a preference and I respect each players right to play the way they enjoy the game the most.
     
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  13. Primer

    Primer Well-Known Member

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    I still like the idea of charging trophies to Start each battle, with server contacted and trophies removed from your total once hit the battle button. Players who restart less often end up with more net trophies in the end. Would make us choose between accepting losses more often or ending up with fewer net trophies from a win due to multiple restarts. But that is just my favorite options, other ideas would work also.

    Wouldn’t affect Strongholds or non PVP battles as they wouldn’t charge trophies to start those.

    End of season trophies still convert to WCs, so players not competing for top spots in PVP still have incentive not to restart.

    To me this would strongly encourage development of entire army on a more equal basis rather than 5 to 10 top Regiments. Would also make me learn to use Regiments I normally leave on sideline such as TSG and GH to fill in when my normal lineup is on cooldown.
     
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  14. Anton Amby

    Anton Amby Well-Known Member

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    Not on the topic of crit, but I wish they would just rework PvP again (or create another gamemode where players interact in some way) at some point.
    Current PvP has a bunch of problems:
    1. Only a small minority of the playerbase can actually compete for a place on the leaderboard.
    2. Even for those that can compete, it's actually just a game of 'who spends the most diamonds'
    3. Top 100 is way to small a pool, even if the game only had 1k players that would still be 1% of the playerbase that's being shown. (which also goes along with point 1)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 3:03 PM
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  15. Owain

    Owain New Member

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    Generally agree, if the randomness of multiple unit killing crits in one turn is levelled. I hate the games where 5v6 has been skilfully played to 5v3 injured, and 3 crit later it's 2v3.
     
  16. Gazgulkilla

    Gazgulkilla New Member

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    If it's strategy thats impotant, dont put your stack near a heavily wounded guard unit. Find a new lovatlocor better strategy
     
  17. Gazgulkilla

    Gazgulkilla New Member

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    I'm assuming you don't play with Guarfiahs, thus you don't get to take advantage of it
     
  18. Primer

    Primer Well-Known Member

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    Given the choice between killing a weakened opponent regiment or trying to wound a different one I tend to go for the killing blow.

    That is one less unit that can Crit against me on opponent turn. Rather avoid the extra chance at a Crit and absorb the extra normal damage. Just one example of adjusting strategy because of the existing Crit setup.

    If Crits were nerfed I would most likely choose to wound a second opponent instead and take the lesser damage from both.
     
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  19. Owain

    Owain New Member

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    Yep. Except sometimes you leave an enemy unit with 1-5 health unintentionally. On those occasions, too often they then crit and wipe out a full unit.
    I get the random luck element. The argument is that it's too significant. Crit should remain, but, it would be better if it was scaled to unit strength.
     
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