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Crit is a problem

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Saedorn, Nov 24, 2018.

  1. Loraykin

    Loraykin Active Member

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    An attempt at basing in history or reality the "reason" for keeping crit exactly as it is, seems really self-defeating.

    For illustration, I suggest you try to come up with instances where one army was outnumbered by a factor of 50:1 or more but still completely wiped out the other army. And just for the unlikely case that you can come up with any examples (I assume it would have to be a peasant army with pitch-forks being wiped out by machine guns), maybe you then estimate what percentage of battles turned out this way, because that would be your "realistic" crit% for that situation, no doubt well below 1%.

    That doesn't make it eternal law, does it? Just because there has been a weird (and completely unrealistic) decision one time (that crit is exclusively caused by the army's general and thus does not scale), does not mean you can't revisit this decision and change it. You and Mark keep bringing up the strange argument of "that's just how it is", so I feel the need to repeat Dez's succinct words: it's called an update.
     
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  2. Owain

    Owain Member

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    Has anyone ever had a unit down to less than 10 strength wipe out an enemy full strength unit in one hit? I haven't. My critical hits appear proportionate to the units health.
     
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  3. Waarthog

    Waarthog Member

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    The battle of Thermopylae wants to say hello ... Alexander and his Phalanx also were outnumbered quite often ... but this dosent really change anything ... Just like refering to made up lore ... What this discussion should be about is the game and unlike some other games (eg Chess) the rules here are not carved in stone.
    Two rules are up for change right at the moment: adds for live and closing app, may they be intended or not. ( Devs never said not to use that feature and I also don't like it. I also think it's very unfair that some have adds and others not) Now these two rules that are going to change are heavily linked with the crit problem. While leveling I didn't have any problems with crits they were something you could work around (eg my first post in this thread) but now I must say I have reached a point were you cannot counter the crit other than restarting or adds.... Well if your army is big enough you just use other units but especially for new players like me this isn't a option. This needs to be balanced out otherwise you will end up with a game were a few veterans play and new players don't stand a chance if they are not prepared to invest more than a year to even thinking of competing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  4. Mark Engle

    Mark Engle Well-Known Member

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    In the mythical phase of the game, you have to change tactics and treat every AI reg like a DG. You can't whittle a reg down to low health, and then ignore it (like in the pre-mythical version of this game.)

    There are other strategies and tactics to minimize CS from AI, which is subject matter for another thread.

    When I play my WL19 account, I use different strats compared to my WL23 account. I'm confident Jin does, as well.

    FWIW, I find the lower WL battles super-boring, because crits don't matter. However, that may be because I've already played a gazillion battles on the same handful of maps for 2+ years.

    I do think it would be cool if the devs incorporated a Stronghold Blitz season, that would run concurrently with PvP season. That way, players who dont like CS can compete in the version of the game they prefer. Additionally, lower level warlords could compete with higher levels, since SH scales with level. Of course, good rewards, similar to PvP, should be at stake.
     
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  5. Waarthog

    Waarthog Member

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    There is a big difference between DG and a random crit ... Atm crits are so strong it dosent really matter if it's a counter class delivering it it the target unit is in forests or on an elevated position ... I'd be quite interested in those tactical tricks to minimize CS ... The only one I can think of right now other to those that I already apply is having 5 stars instead of 4 hence having higher resistances and dealing more damage myself ...
     
  6. Owain

    Owain Member

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    5s makes no difference. These AI crits are unit killers. As you say, even terrain is not impacting them, and their frequency jumps once a unit is damaged.
    Yes, you can try to focus on single units, but if you are using archers, you may not be able to use all attacks on a single opponent.
     
  7. Mark Engle

    Mark Engle Well-Known Member

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    @Waarthog

    If you have 4* regs fighting against 5* regs, your chance of getting KO'd by a crit is significantly higher.

    But, that's to be expected. Superior troops should whomp on inferior troops. ;) Your only advantages are a dumb, predictable AI and your tactics.

    OFF/DEF ratio affects critical damage, and caps out at 2.0. So, if enemy AI reg has higher OFF than your DEF, the crit damage will be amplified.

    Example: if AI archer has OFF that is 1.5x higher than your reg's DEF, the crit damage is multiplied by 1.5.

    The only way to raise your DEF is by upgrading to 5* and upgrading your mythical armor.

    I remember those days when my regs were 4* and PvP opponents were 5*.:mad: I definitely focused on getting my top 5 to 5* to improve DEF.
     
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  8. Zancudo

    Zancudo Active Member

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    I eat Green Berets for breakfast. And right now, I'm very hungry!

    (You could change "Green Berets" by "regiments")

    Arnold is so Big!
     
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  9. Hackuuna

    Hackuuna Active Member

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    There's a few ways:
    1. Know which regiment the AI is likely to target. In my experience the AI will generally pick the path where it does the most potential damage with a few exceptions. You can use this to bait out regiments to attack your strongest defensive regiment by making it their only option.
    2. Knowing how to bait the AI into using skills at certain times effectively buys you a turn if those skills cannot actually kill you.
    3. Use RoF to split the enemy into manageable chunks. If you don't want a mage to one shot you need to split enemy regiments and range them down. Also never allow another regiment to attack you from high ground.
    4. Use almost entirely range units. Being ranged means being able to get in the first hits and control the fight better.
    That's pretty much it. Obviously some maps make this impossible and enemy top 5-7 that are composed entirely of range units will make it impossible for you to avoid crits.

    Personally the hardest fight I've ever had to do where I didn't want to lose a regiment and have all regiments at 50% or higher health after was a 5v7 on a map where all enemy regiment start on high ground and all 7 were ranged (LA, CA, GG, MF, SM, LC, DS).
     
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  10. Primer

    Primer Well-Known Member

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    Great post Hackuuna. It is about strategy. I get the impression some players just expect to be able to win every battle without ever losing a Regiment. How boring would that be?

    I especially get a chuckle out of concerns that a 4s army struggles vs a 5s opponent. Is this really something that needs to be “fixed”?

    Or that a player with many 5s Regiments would have an advantage over a player with only a few. Hmmm. Isn’t that the point of advancing all your Regiments? Is that really a problem? Seems to me that is your reward for taking the time (or spending the money) to upgrade additional Regiments. You get to have some backups if you do get a unit killed.

    Neither of these arguments sway my opinion about Crits needing to be nerfed or not. And that is a key point. It is my “opinion”. I recognize and respect the fact others may have different opinions.

    It is a little annoying when those opinions are presented as if they are facts and that the current Crit setup is somehow a mistake and something that absolutely, positively needs to be changed. The game cannot be customized to give every individual player every detail they way they think it should be. They need to appeal to the masses, and not just those who complain the loudest.
     
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  11. Jimsom2

    Jimsom2 Active Member

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    For me, the problem with crits is that the game would be unplayable without the exploit of restarting battles. The game doesn't "win" by beating your army completely, it wins by putting units on timers so that you watch ads or pay diamonds to revive. It's really easy with the current mechanic for that to happen and everyone restarts the game a lot as a result. Maybe timers were an important money generator when the game was new but it feels like nickel and diming when combined with the $99 battle ready deals and the price of buying diamonds. It's a testament to how good the rest of the game is that lots of people enjoy playing only because of an exploit.

    I'm personally waiting to see what happens with new features around restart/revive before asking for changes to crits. I would still love to be able to suppress my own critical hits when I want to delay the end of the battle. Winning a battle before I've healed up or collected the LW because of an unintended crit is still my pet peeve.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
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  12. Anton Amby

    Anton Amby Well-Known Member

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    I don't imagine that there's a lot of instances of 1 man taking out 200 with the hit of 1 arrow though. :p
    Not that any of that matters to me, as I said before I couldn't care less about the lore if it makes the game less fun.
     
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  13. Primer

    Primer Well-Known Member

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    Also, in 5s vs 5s battles I have often received Crit hits which weaken but do not destroy my regiment completely. A mage can one shot my DG in a forest if it is downhill, but on level ground with mixed armor I will survive if fully healthy to begin with. Typically if you have the right armor on and any one advantage that is not offset by your opponent you can and will survive.

    Just don’t expect your partially wounded DG to survive a downhill Mage strike while wearing full physical armor just because you stuck him in a forest. That is class, off/def and height advantage for enemy. I also don’t expect my DG with only 300 units left to survive the same strike being given from below, but I know he does if he starts with 425 units. And I never expect a mage to survive an archer strike unless I am full physical armor, in a forest, and at least on level ground.

    Again. An advantage for those who have taken the time and effort to develop gear options. But I still don’t think this is wrong for the game. If I only choose to develop five units and make them all mages, should I really be expecting I can defeat an army full of archers just because I am all 5s?
     
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  14. Hackuuna

    Hackuuna Active Member

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    It's tricky though because you have to take into account why people make decisions based on the overall game experience. For example, some may develop only 5 regiments because they want to enter the top 100. Top 100 being the only true visible way of seeing how you compare with others and some are motivated by this as well as the slightly better rewards.

    The other factor is choosing which 5 regiments will help you progress the fastest. In general, you'll make gold at a good pace if you have a few mages backed by RoF in SH. In addition, focusing on 5 regiments will also increase the WC rewards at a faster rate and afford you better gear/shards. The random nature of shards in WH makes it especially difficult to add shards to the regiments you want within a decemt amount of time which sort of encourages only focusing on a few regiments via LW.

    Having said all that, it's not a surprise to me that players may end up with less than optimal setups for dealing with crits and/or ranged regiments and why long cooldowns will become especially frustrating for them. If you're realistically only playing with 5 to 7 regiments then long recovery timers effectively stops your play, hence the complaints about crits.
     
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  15. Owain

    Owain Member

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    We are digressing based on one post. The gripe is ultra low health units one hit kill of full health units.
    Example which happened last tournament.
    1 enemy archer, firing uphill, hits a full strength CA unit, and wiped them out.

    Crit is and should stay part of the game. However, the game would be better if crit was better balanced. Btw I have yet to see one of my badly injured units perform a "miracle crit" and one hit wipe out a full stack.
     
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  16. NoName

    NoName Active Member

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    I am one of the 4* Army Warlords regularly facing 5* PVP opponents, and I love it. Those in my alliance know which maps give me problems & have assisted me to drastically improve my strategy. The “realistic” contention is amusing to me as this is a game.

    I mean we don’t contend that a foot soldiers with a stick do more physical damage than a soldiers charging from a mounted position with a stick, seriously what’s up with that :confused:

    At least two, or three, times per season I will have 7 Regs on 3 hour cool down just from my five PVP battles. This does not bother me, as Warlords of Aternum gives us the opportunity to have many Regs, not just a top 5. Sure, it’s a struggle sometimes & I may have to work with less than desirable Regs, but it can be done. I have played the last few seasons with very few restarts mostly using the built in feature of the retreat flag, and setting a favorable start before the enemy attacks, as this was part of the original game design.
     
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  17. Loraykin

    Loraykin Active Member

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    Nowhere close to 50:1 and the underdog lost, far from wiping out the enemy.
    Who exactly? I certainly don't, I'm fine with losing the occasional regiment to the timer, especially since my army is now 22 wide and will probably not get any narrower. But I would also prefer to lose regiments because I employed bad strategy, or because I fought a strong army, rather than because I got unlucky with crits.
    Maybe I've missed it, but who exactly stated that this is a concern? Waarthog said something along the lines of he might need 5s units to minimize crit effect, but he didn't say whether or not it was against 5s or 4s, nor did he state he expected to not struggle. There seems to be some confusion here - asking for a smaller luck influence is not at all synonymous to asking for an easier game Maybe even the opposite, because you'd have less opportunity to reroll the dice and win by luck. For my part, I welcome challenges very much, if they are strategic. Mythical crit numbers are too high and create too high a luck factor, that's the argument, certainly not that 4s should not struggle against 5s.
    Those who argue for lesser crits want to make it MORE about strategy.
    I agree, a game does not have to be realistic at all, it should just be fun. And as I've said before, I accept that people have different opinions about what is fun, and how much luck or strategy should be involved to have fun. But I'll also keep arguing for a while longer with players who claim that crit is mostly about strategy (it's not, it's the very definition of a random/luck component), or claim this cannot be changed because it's just as it is (then turn around and gripe mightily about spawn distribution), or claim crits are in any way realistic (they ain't and don't need to be).
    Good idea.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  18. Dezytrius

    Dezytrius Member

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    Some of you players arguing for system current status quo, sound rude, condescending, and almost trollish.

    Loraykin said this point by point much nicer then I feel like being, so I will refrain from much of what and how I would like to say.

    Your constant mischaracterizations of the primary change being advocated is borish.

    Nobody is arguing to get rid crit.
    Many of us want to reduce, not remove, the luck factor of severely damaged units killing undamaged, comparable units.

    Players arguing for status quo seem to have 3 main points:
    1. It's how it is. WoA Lore
    2. But Rambo
    3. You suck at tactics, just get smarter

    Some counter points
    1. It's called an update, things change. Current Example, Southern Continent
    2. Rambo ended up in jail when a bunch of guys of comparable level showed up.
    Everyone in the "300" died!

    3. Just because you are WL23 all 5* reg does not in any way make you smarter, better, more tactical, or even competent at managing your army. WoA is not the only tactical game in the universe. Many players are quite tactical at any and all levels simply because of their past gaming experience. Fact is you can flat out buy experienced units, and I have read many posts where it is commonly accepted that being top of the PvP leader board is about spending Diamonds on rerolls.

    So please, "Can" the holier then though attitude "I'm 5*WL23 and therefore I have better tactics." Sorry to burst your bubble, you dont. You have simply played longer, or paid more money then others.

    Lastly, then I intend to shut my mouth for a long while, (btw, I dont always do what I intend)

    Shutting the app down, or flipping the game board and watching the pieces fall all over the floor, in my honest opinion, while accepted by all of us, is cheating, and is required at the same time to make the game playable. That should make this whole concept an important topic worthy of all of our elaborate and thoughtful discussion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  19. Jin

    Jin Well-Known Member

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    I supposed I qualify as one of these players.:D:p

    I'm sure we all want some sort of CS changes. What we 'borish' warlords are saying is that CS has became part of what we faced for so long that we've factor it into our battle style. We're just saying how we dealt with CS rather than saying to keep CS as it is.

    I'm guilty on lots of occassions in thinking and posting that a regiment of of several units can ko a near or full health regiment. I know it's semantic but it's the commander of the regiment that has the ability of CS. (I know, I know, Anton, you don't care about the lore. :D:D)

    It's a fantasy TBS game so it's logical an All Mighty Being exist. I think we all agreed that the CS damage of that All Mighty Being need to be reduced or it's rate reduce.

    At times, the 1st and 2nd Gen warlords can sound a bit uncaring and we appeared to have the attitude of 'we can do it so can you' but we never intend any disrespect. :):)
     
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  20. Jin

    Jin Well-Known Member

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